How Learning Begins in the Brain: Sleep, Safety and Curiosity (Revisiting Dr. Baland Jalal)

Andrea Samadi revisits a conversation with neuroscientist Dr. Baland Jalal about how curiosity launched his career and how transitional sleep states fuel creativity. The episode explores sleep paralysis research and the hypnagogic window—the moments before sleep and after waking when the brain makes unexpected connections.

This week, Episode 384—based on our review of Episode 224, recorded in June 2022—we’ll explore:

✔ Why learning, creativity, and curiosity depend on a regulated nervous system ✔ How sleep—especially REM—creates the conditions for insight and problem-solving ✔ What happens in the brain when focus shuts down and imagination turns on ✔ Why safety, rhythm, and rest are prerequisites for learning—not rewards after it ✔ How understanding sleep changes the way we approach performance, education, and growth

Listeners learn practical tips for capturing insights at the edge of sleep, setting intentions before bed, and protecting morning silence to preserve creative flashes. The episode emphasizes that learning and creativity emerge best when the nervous system feels safe and regulated.

This episode launches Season 15’s Phase 1 focus on regulation and safety, framing sleep, rhythm, and emotional regulation as the essential foundation for motivation, learning, and sustained performance.

Welcome back to Season 15 of the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast.

I’m Andrea Samadi, and here we bridge the science behind social and emotional learning, emotional intelligence, and practical neuroscience—so you can create measurable improvements in well-being, achievement, productivity, and results.

When we launched this podcast seven years ago, it was driven by a question I had never been taught to ask— not in school, not in business, and not in life:

If results matter—and they matter now more than ever—how exactly are we using our brain to make these results happen?

Most of us were taught what to do. Very few of us were taught how to think under pressure, how to regulate emotion, how to sustain motivation, or even how to produce consistent results without burning out.

That question led me into a deep exploration of the mind–brain–results connection—and how neuroscience applies to everyday decisions, conversations, and performance.

That’s why this podcast exists.

Each week, we bring you leading experts to break down complex science and translate it into practical strategies you can apply immediately.

If you’ve been with us through Season 14, you may have felt something shift.

That season wasn’t about collecting ideas. It was about integrating these ideas into our daily life.

Across conversations on neuroscience, social and emotional learning, sleep, stress, exercise, nutrition, and mindset frameworks—from voices like Bob Proctor, José Silva, Dr. Church, Dr. John Medina, and others—one thing became clear:

These aren’t separate tools. They’re parts of one operating system.

When the brain, body, and emotions are aligned, performance stops feeling forced—and starts to feel sustainable.

Season 14 showed us what alignment looks like in real life.

And now we move into Season 15 that is about understanding how that alignment is built—so we can build it ourselves, using predictable, science-backed principles.

Because alignment doesn’t happen all at once. It happens by using a sequence.

By repeating this sequence over and over again, until magically (or predictably) we notice our results have changed.

So this season, we’re revisiting past conversations—not to repeat them—but to understand how they fit together, so we can replicate them ourselves.

Because the brain doesn’t develop skills in isolation. Learning doesn’t happen in isolation. And neither does performance, resilience, or well-being.

The brain operates as a set of interconnected systems. When one system is out of balance, everything else is affected.

So Season 15 we’ve organized as a review roadmap, where each episode explores one foundational brain system—and each phase builds on the one before it.

Season 15 Roadmap:

Phase 1 — Regulation & Safety Phase 2 — Neurochemistry & Motivation Phase 3 — Movement, Learning & Cognition Phase 4 — Perception, Emotion & Social Intelligence Phase 5 — Integration, Insight & Meaning

Today we begin with Phase One: Regulation and Safety.

Because before learning can happen, before curiosity can emerge, before motivation or growth is possible— the brain must feel safe.

That’s where we are today as we embark on this journey together. I encourage us all to take notes, and apply what each phase is encouraging us to do. This is not just for you, the listener, I’m going right back myself, and revisiting each interview with a new lens.

PHASE 1: REGULATION & SAFETY

Staples: Sleep + Stress Regulation Core Question: Is the nervous system safe enough to learn?

Anchor Episodes

Episode 384 — Baland Jalal How learning begins: curiosity, sleep, imagination, creativity Bruce Perry “What happened to you?” — trauma, rhythm, relational safety Sui Wong Autonomic balance, lifestyle medicine, brain resilience Rohan Dixit HRV, real-time self-regulation, nervous system literacy

EPISODE 384 — REVIEW OF EP 224 (JUNE 2022)

Revisiting Our Interview with Baland Jalal

Today’s Episode 384 we go back to Episode 224[i], recorded in June 2022, featuring Danish neuroscientist Dr. Baland Jalal—a researcher, author, and one of the world’s leading experts on sleep paralysis.

Dr. Jalal is a neuroscientist affiliated with Harvard University’s Department of Psychology and was previously a Visiting Researcher at Cambridge University Medical School, where he earned his PhD. His work has been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, NBC News, The Guardian, Forbes, Reuters, PBS (NOVA), and many others. He also writes for TIME Magazine, Scientific American, Big Think, and The Boston Globe.

Since our original interview, I’ve watched Dr. Jalal’s influence expand globally. Most recently, he appeared on Jordan B. Peterson’s podcast[ii], discussing Dreams, Nightmares, and Neuroscience, and on Lewis Howes’ School of Greatness[iii], where he explored Dreams, Lucid Dreaming, and the Neuroscience of Consciousness—an episode that truly stretched Lewis’s thinking.

What stood out to me most—then and now—was Dr. Jalal’s transparency about learning.

At the beginning of his interview with Lewis Howes, Dr. Jalal shared how a single experience—his desire to understand his own episodes of sleep paralysis more than 20 years ago—sparked a lifelong curiosity. That curiosity led him to his local library in Copenhagen and ultimately transformed his entire career path in ways he could never have imagined as a young man spending time on the streets.

That honesty resonated deeply with me.

Before Google, I remember sitting in a local library in Arizona around that same time, trying to understand the mysteries of the world—from the Great Pyramid of Giza to Stonehenge—reading everything I could get my hands on. Like Dr. Jalal, I was curious about many things I didn’t understand, but my path didn’t start with neuroscience or learning science, which came later for me. We all begin somewhere.

Let’s go to our first clip from Dr. Baland Jalal, where he shares how his love of learning truly began.

🎥 VIDEO CLIP 1 — Where His Love of Learning Began

Before watching this clip, it’s important to listen with perspective. This is the same person who would later be described by the BBC and The Telegraph as “one of the world’s leading experts on sleep paralysis.” But that expertise didn’t begin with certainty—it began with curiosity.

Dr. Jalal said:

“I always hated books. I thought books were so boring. I’d rather hang out in the streets. Then I started to read and found how psychology and the brain were kind of interesting—why we do certain behaviors, why we think a certain way, and how the brain works. I started reading more and more and hanging out at the library instead of in the streets. I was kind of hiding it—I was supposed to be the cool kid. How do you walk with swag and have books? It didn’t fit, but I made it work. I realized that when you actually like the material and what you are doing, you can become really good at it.”

 

🔑 KEY TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS CLIP 1. Curiosity Precedes Confidence

Expertise rarely begins with certainty—it begins with a question. Dr. Jalal didn’t set out to become a neuroscientist; he set out to understand his own experiences with sleep paralysis. This mirrors what many of our experts have shared on this podcast. Doug Fisher, for example, once told me he enrolled in medical school classes simply to better understand how the brain learns. Curiosity comes first. As Dr. Jalal explains, the more you learn, the clearer your thinking becomes—and clarity builds confidence naturally.

2. Identity Shifts Are Often Private at First

Real growth often begins quietly, long before others notice. Before the transformation becomes visible, it happens internally—sometimes even in secrecy. Dr. Jalal hid the books he was reading, unsure how his growing interest would be received. I remember doing the exact same thing when I first began studying the brain and learning. I questioned myself constantly: Who was I to explain a topic I hadn’t formally studied in university? Years later, I’ve read more books on neuroscience than I did during my entire university career. Growth doesn’t ask for permission—it asks for commitment.

3. Intrinsic Motivation Changes the Brain

When learning is driven by genuine interest rather than obligation, engagement deepens, persistence increases, and mastery accelerates. Neuroscience consistently shows that motivation strengthens attention, memory, and long-term retention. I was first handed Brain Rules by John Medina in 2009—nearly a decade before I was ready to fully absorb it. My boss at the time thought I’d enjoy it. She had no idea that this one book (along with a few others) would eventually inspire me to study the brain deeply enough to launch this podcast.

4. You Don’t Need to Start “As an Expert”

Dr. Jalal’s journey reminds us that passion often develops after exposure—not before it. I clearly remember the fear of making mistakes in our early podcast episodes. I didn’t want to admit I was still learning. What’s refreshing—and reassuring—is realizing that we all begin in the same place: with curiosity. It’s the willingness to keep learning that ultimately determines how far we go.

5. Environment Shapes Trajectory

A library, a book, a single moment—small environmental shifts can redirect an entire life. This idea continues to stand out to me. In 1999, during my first visit to New Orleans, I was riding a trolley from Jackson Square through the French Market when I noticed a young boy—maybe 15 years old—reading Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. I’ll never forget the determination on his face. That was decades before I would cover this book on the podcast, but I’m certain that moment shaped his future in ways we’ll never fully see. Learning can take place anywhere when there’s a will behind your desire.

🧠 TIPS TO PUT THESE IDEAS INTO ACTION 1. Follow the Question That Won’t Let You Go

Notice the topic you keep returning to. That recurring curiosity is often your brain pointing you toward growth. For me, it started with the mysteries of the world. Neuroscience and learning came later—but we all start somewhere. Pay attention to what occupies your thoughts when you have some quiet time.

2. Create a Low-Pressure Learning Space

Give yourself permission to learn privately—without posting online, performing, or proving anything to anyone. Learning takes time to organize internally. Journaling or keeping a dedicated notebook helps move ideas from your head onto paper, strengthening your understanding and reflection.

3. Replace “I’m Not Good at This” with “I’m Interested in This”

Interest is a stronger predictor of success than talent. Motivation literally rewires attention and memory networks in the brain. I still remember opening How the Brain Learns by David Sousa, then closing it just as quickly thinking, this is way over my head. Give yourself time. Learning settles in layers.

4. Change One Environment Variable

Spend time where learning naturally happens—libraries, podcasts, books, long-form conversations. Brains adapt to what they’re exposed to repeatedly. Keep your learning time consistent. Over time, as notebooks fill and ideas connect, you’ll be amazed how much this simple daily habit compounds.

5. Let Identity Catch Up Later

You don’t need to call yourself a “scientist,” “leader,” or “expert” today. Keep learning—the identity will follow. I initially called myself a researcher. It took years before I felt comfortable adding “neuroscience researcher.” That word once felt intimidating. Now it fits—because the work came first.

I hope Dr. Jalal’s first clip has inspired you to notice what’s been quietly calling your attention—and to take the first step toward becoming an expert in that area by simply beginning.

🎥 VIDEO CLIP 2 — Hypnagogic Sleep, Insight, and Creativity

 

In our second video clip with Baland Jalal, he takes us into a stage of sleep I’ve been fascinated by since my 20s—hypnagogic sleep. This is the transitional brain state that occurs just before we drift off to sleep, or in those brief moments when we’ve just woken up.

We talk about this around the 30-minute mark in our interview, where I shared that years ago I asked a sleep expert why I was seeing what I can only describe as “flashes of insight” on the screen of my mind—right before falling asleep and again upon waking. That expert told me to study the term hypnagogic sleep.

Dr. Jalal took this idea a step further by explaining that this is not just a strange or fleeting state—but a highly creative brain state.

He explains that during REM sleep, certain neurotransmitters—such as noradrenaline, which helps keep us focused and goal-directed during waking life—are significantly reduced. With those “focus chemicals” turned down, the brain becomes far more open to connecting unrelated ideas, thinking expansively, and solving problems in novel ways.

Dr. Jalal even references Thomas Edison, who famously used this state intentionally. Edison would sit in a chair holding a spoon, with a metal plate underneath. As he drifted toward sleep, the moment he lost consciousness, the spoon would fall, wake him up, and allow him to capture ideas that surfaced in that brief window of awareness.

This hypnagogic state—those few seconds between waking and sleeping—is a sweet spot for creativity, insight, and innovation.

🔑 KEY TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS CLIP

Hypnagogic Sleep Is a Gateway State The moments just before sleep and just after waking are neurologically unique. The brain is not fully awake or asleep, making it more flexible and imaginative. Reduced Focus Enables Creativity When neurotransmitters like noradrenaline decrease, the brain becomes less rigid and more associative—allowing ideas to connect in unexpected ways. Insight Often Comes When Control Loosens Creativity doesn’t always come from intense focus. Sometimes it emerges when the brain is allowed to wander without pressure. This State Can Be Accessed Intentionally Visionaries like Thomas Edison didn’t wait for inspiration—they designed conditions to access it deliberately. Many “Aha” Moments Live Here Those flashes of insight you experience before sleep or upon waking are not random—they’re a byproduct of how the brain reorganizes information during this state.

🧠 TIPS TO PUT THESE IDEAS INTO ACTION 1. Capture Ideas at the Edge of Sleep

Keep a notebook or voice memo next to your bed. If an idea surfaces just before sleep or immediately upon waking, capture it right away—don’t trust yourself to remember it later.

REMEMBER: “Ideas are like slippery fish. If you don’t gaff them on the end of a pen, they swim away quickly, never to be seen again.” — Earl Nightingale

Many ideas that arrive during this highly creative state won’t make sense in the moment. Write them down anyway. What feels fragmented today may reveal meaning weeks—or even months—later.

2. Set an Intention Before Sleep

Before drifting off, gently focus on a question or problem you’d like insight on. Don’t force an answer. Simply invite your brain to explore it while you rest. Often, clarity emerges when effort steps aside.

3. Protect the Wake-Up Window

Resist the urge to grab your phone the moment you wake up. Give yourself one or two quiet minutes to notice lingering images, ideas, or thoughts before your analytical mind takes over. This brief window can hold surprising insight.

4. Allow Unfocused Thinking Time

Creativity thrives when the brain isn’t under constant demand. Build in moments of mental looseness—walks, quiet reflection, stillness, or even stepping away for lunch.

I’ll never forget when I worked in the seminar industry. During our busiest selling days, my colleague Mark would insist we take a lunch break and go out to eat—often to the same sushi restaurant down the street. Every time we returned, without fail, there would be a new sale waiting on the fax machine (this was back when fax ruled). We became convinced that stepping away from the work was part of what allowed the result to arrive.

5. Trust the Subconscious Process

Some of your best ideas won’t come through effort, but through space. Learning to work with your brain’s natural rhythms—rather than against them—can dramatically expand creative output. Whether it’s on a walk, in the shower, through journaling, or during moments of stillness, give your subconscious room to surface what it already knows.

🔍 EP 384 — REVIEW & CONCLUSION

As we wrap up Episode 384, revisiting our 2022 conversation with Baland Jalal, what stands out most to me is not just what we learned about sleep, dreams, or creativity—but how learning itself unfolds over time.

In our first clip, we saw how Dr. Jalal’s entire career began not with certainty or credentials, but with curiosity. A single question—Why is this happening to me?—led him from the streets of Copenhagen to the library, and eventually to becoming one of the world’s leading experts on sleep paralysis. His story is a reminder that expertise is not something you decide in advance; it’s something that emerges when curiosity is given space to grow.

In our second clip, we explored the hypnagogic state—that brief window between waking and sleeping where the brain loosens its grip on focus and control. In this state, insight becomes possible not because we try harder, but because we try less. Creativity, problem-solving, and expansive thinking emerge when the brain is allowed to wander, connect, and reorganize information in new ways.

Together, these clips tell a powerful story:

Learning begins with curiosity Growth often happens quietly and privately Creativity emerges when we allow space instead of pressure And some of our most meaningful ideas arrive when we stop forcing them

This is why conversations like this continue to matter years later. Not because the science has changed—but because we have.

If there’s one takeaway from today’s episode, it’s this: You don’t need to know where your curiosity will lead. You only need to honor it long enough to begin.

Whether your insights arrive in a library, during a walk, just before sleep, or in the quiet moments you usually rush past—pay attention. Write them down. Give them time.

Because learning doesn’t always announce itself loudly. Sometimes, it whispers—right before we fall asleep, or just as we wake up.

And that’s where the next chapter often begins.

As we close today’s episode, I want to leave you with one simple idea to carry forward.

Before the brain can learn, before curiosity can expand, before imagination or growth can take hold— the nervous system has to feel safe.

What Dr. Baland Jalal helped us see today is that sleep, rhythm, and regulation aren’t “nice to have.” They’re the entry point.

When the brain is rested and regulated, it becomes curious. When it isn’t, it stays in survival mode—no matter how motivated or capable we are.

This is where Phase One of Season 15 truly begins.

Because regulation isn’t about fixing what’s broken. It’s about creating the conditions where learning becomes possible.

Next week, in Episode 385, we’ll deepen this conversation with Dr. Bruce Perry—one of the world’s leading experts on trauma, brain development, and relational safety.

His work reminds us that when we ask “What’s wrong with you?” we miss the real question.

“What happened to you?”

We’ll explore how rhythm, relationships, and safety shape the developing brain—and why understanding this changes how we approach education, leadership, parenting, and performance.

So as you move into the coming week, notice this:

Where does your nervous system feel supported? And where might it still be asking for safety?

Because everything we’ll build in this season—motivation, learning, resilience, and insight—rests on this foundation.

I’ll see you next week for Episode 385.

RESOURCES:

Watch our full interview on YouTube here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE15JIqy5rU

🎥 VIDEO CLIP 1 — Where His Love of Learning Began

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pfKGZMZ2X5Q

🎥 VIDEO CLIP 2 — Hypnagogic Sleep, Insight, and Creativity

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IA-_UAwewzg

 

REFERENCES:

 

[i] Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast EPISODE 224 with Dr. Baland Jalal on “Sleep Paralysis, Lucid Dreaming and Premonitions” https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/harvard-neuroscientist-drbaland-jalalexplainssleepparalysislucid-dreaming-andpremonitionsexpandingour-awareness-into-the-mysteries-ofourbrainduring-sl/

 

[ii] The Jordan B Peterson Podcast with Dr. Baland Jalal  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_seRpqUJDo

 

[iii] Dr. Baland Jalal with Lewis Howes on The School of Greatness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp5izIYNZas